Lewis Carroll Bulletin Board

Editor's note: That's what I like - short, sweet, and to the point.

A flower but a lady be
An arab steed that swift doth fly
If you can't do me you must die
The Swedish University
The noble who was 'fair to see'

*****************************************
An answer came in.
Also...I think there was a query as to what Mr. Dodgson was doing from June to August in 1867.He was touring Russia, with Henry Liddon, an eminent preacher, ostensibly to give the compliments of Queen Victoria, head of the Church of England, to the Metropolitan of Moscow, head of the Russian Orthodox Church. (Or have I got the wrong Lewis Carroll site? I'm rather like the White Queen... a little muddle-headed from time to time). btw... I've used Mr. Dodgson as a main character in a mystery story, "the Problem of the Missing Miss", just published from St.Martin's Press. Hope you enjoy it... Roberta Rogow

Any comments would be immensely welcome, and of course, nothing would be quoted without permission. I can be found on the Contacts page.

Thanks
Karoline Leach

Did you get to hear about the discovery I made in the Guildford archive of the scrap of paper, headed 'Cut Pages in Diary' that contains an outline of the so-important missing diary page for June 27 1863? It certainly seems to dispose of the idea that the infamous 'rift' was connected with Alice Liddell in any way, and points to unanticipated possibilities of a completely different kind ( a good example of the perils of too much certainty!) . You don't seem to have anything about it on your home page at the moment. I think the 'Cut Pages in Diary' document, written as it is in the hand of Dodgson's niece Violet, herself a keeper of the MS diaries, is probably one of the most important finds to come to light in the last few years, so maybe it would be of benefit to other researchers if there could be a slot where they could access and read it. If you would like some more background, I wrote the discovery up for the TLS (Times Literary Supplement) , May 3 1996. Or you could email me.

I admit that, as something of an interloper on the Lewis Carroll literary and biographical scene, I am slightly worried by the absence of debate and of what looks like an overgrowth of largely unjustifiable consensus. There seems to be more enthusiasm amongst many Carrollians for fascinating but perhaps rather esoteric minutiae about Cheshire Cats, ravens, writing-desks and boojums than for investigating or debating the life of the man who created them, and I sense that this is because that life is perceived as an open and not very interesting secret. I take a different view, I think we all know everything about the myth of 'Lewis Carroll', but as yet, very little about the heart and soul of that most curious man, Charles Dodgson.

Editor's Note: I will let others digest this and respond to it, before I put my two cents worth in. I do so want to respond, but I'll control myself.

I am not making this up!

I wonder if anyone can tell me what exactly this theory is.

Hitoshi Noguchi

First, a small correction: The red queen hypothesis is not used to explain the difference of the sexes, but the existence of sexual reproduction. In theory sexual reproduction is possible without differences between sexes.

The problem that biologists are faced with, is that almost all multicellular (and even many single-celled) organisms have some sort of sexual reproduction. At first sight, having only generative (non-sexual) reproduction would be much more efficient. With hardly more resources and time, this can produce double the number of offspring. Since sexual reproduction is nevertheless very common, and often special organs are devoted to it, there must be a reason why it is. Several theories exist, and most of them (among which the Red Queen hypothesis) argue that there is a benefit in having offspring different from the parents. One of these is the Red Queen hypothesis, indeed named after the Red Queen from 'Through the Looking Glass'. The Red Queen tells Alice that (I don't have the book at hand, so I will need to paraphrase) 'we have to run to just stay where we are, to get ahead we need to run even faster'. The Red Queen hypothesis uses the fact that a species is never alone, but in constant competition or fight with other species. Now, if a species would be unchanging, the other species could adapt to this species, and this would be to its detriment. To avoid this, the species itself needs to adapt. Thus, according to the Red Queen hypothesis, just like the Red Queen species need to run (evolve) to just stay where they are (avoid extinction).

An example to better understand what is going on:

Imagine a hypothetical savannah with two species, one partially-armed herbivore, and one fearsome carnivore. The carnivore can either attack the herbivore on the neck with its teeth, or on the belly with its claws.

Now, suppose the herbivore can have either of two types of armament, one to protect its neck, and one to protect its belly, while the carnivore can make either its teeth or its claw even sharper.

If at a certain time, there are herbivores with neck armor, and carnivores with claws (thus attacking the belly), the herbivores will evolve to get belly armor instead. But when this happens, the carnivores in reaction will start using their teeth more, and develop into the teethed form. Then the herbivores need to get neck armor again, then the carnivores go back to claw strengthening, etcetera ad infinitum.

Because of this, a species will benefit from evolving, and sexual reproduction will allow (much) faster evolution than non-sexual reproduction.

-- Andre Engels, engels@win.tue.nl, ICQ #6260644
http://www.win.tue.nl/cs/fm/engels/index_en.html Maybe it's a true interpretation maybe it's not, but in the intorduction to Kevin Smith's (the writer/director of Clerks, Mallrats, and Chasing Amy) new script (which can be found at script ) there is a reference to Lewis Carrol's poem the Walrus and the Carpenter. Something about how it shows organized religion as being bad. It's the first bit of dialog in the whole script. Just thought you may want to check it out.
Jamie.

>Limin is Latin for the center of the threshold of a doorway. Liminality, >then, is the transitional phase of a rite of passage, during which the >participant follows prescribed forms of conduct

liminality as referring to alice seems to be about the rites of passage and the awkwardness of moving from one state to another....

Just offering up something that i had been thinking about =)
Toodles*~~~~~
kimberly botham

kbotham@direct.ca
chessie1@hotmail.com
personal web page: http://www.angelfire.com/ca/kalikat

My name is Pauline and I have just veiwed your page and have greatly enjoyed it. I am doing a report for Lewis Carroll in Drama. We are doing a play called Outta Control by Pat Cook and it uses a lot of information about Lewis Carroll. It is about a girl who doesn't do her project on Lewis Carroll so her family stages a mystery that is based on The Walrus and the Carpenter using all sorts of things that should hint to her that it's staged but she doesn't catch it. It uses Lewis' real name Dodgson and many other things. I recommend you read the play and put something on this page about it. Thanks for your help.

Sincerely,
Pauline

Dear Joel,

The publisher is Eldridge Publisking Co., Venice FL 34284 in 1994.

Another interesting fact I learned is that Lewis Carroll died on January 14, 1888. We are doing our play on January 15, 1998, a hundred years and a day after his death. It is an absolute coincedience.

Pauline

Let me thank the readers for your kind comments, and interesting questions. The mystique of Lewis Carroll has come to life on the web. These pages would not be possible if Lewis Carroll's work did not continue to intrigue people of influence and talent. As the educators and artists before them, the web community has invested its energy in bringing Carroll to a new generation. 100 years after his death (okay 99.9 years) he has found the media for which he was born.

I'd like to add my congratulations to you for the work you are doing to maintain and stimulate interest in the work of Lewis Carroll. I really have enjoyed both the information and the perceptions.

I am a freelance Actor, Producer, Director living and working in London England. One of my recent projects which I instigated and financed myself for no other reason than I thought it was a good idea that I could carry out well, was to record a performance of 'Alice's Adventures In Wonderland' given by the eminent English actor Sir Donald Sinden. This is now completed with an original and sympathetic score of music and sound effects. I expect it to be released as a double CD within the next six months. However the mood of the recording is so evocative that I believe it could be adapted to make a soundtrack for a computer generated production or sequence. This type of creative activity is nightmarishly expensive to experiment with and so I don't think it would be 'commercial' at this stage. However I wondered if any of you readers are interested in exploring this or other any ideas to further exploit my recording. All suggestions carefully considered.

Very Best Wishes,
Charles Baillie,CBE,
57 Queen's Gate Mews,
London SW7 England
Tel 0171 589 7100

I stumbled on your site by accident and found it totally captivating, as a long-time fan of Mr. Dodgson's work. My congratulations on an excellent effort.

Years ago I remember reading a very amusing letter (or maybe an essay) written by Mr. Dodgson on his tenure as wine steward of his house at Oxford. I've been unable to find it since. Any ideas?

Many thanks for the effort you put into developing and maintaining this fine site.

Here's some Carroll-related minutiae you may not have come across: There's a large and highly respected fraternity of lumbermen (I was a member years go in California) called the International Concatenated Order of Hoo Hoo that takes the titles of its officers from the works of Carroll. The chapter president is the Snark. The vice president is the Jabberwocky and the secretary is the Scrivenoter. The international president is the Snark of the Universe.

Editor's Note:
Thanks very much for your kind review of our page. We have been called many things, but never the awesomest. It is great to see such enthusiasm. At a much older age than you, I showed similar enthusiasm about collecting Alice and was told by a serious collector that it was getting too hard and too expensive to collect Alice. Nonsense! You have a nice start and a great attitude and at your age your parents are probably paying for it. They're the ones who should be careful. Have fun with it. If you haven't read Christina Bjork's book, The Other Alice, you should. You should come to a meeting of the LCSNA if we are ever in your neighborhood. Keep watching the page there are always new things. And yes we are always interested in new games and the like.

From: JCHALKER@delphi.com

I absolutely had a good text of both WONDERLAND and LOOKING GLASS at my side when I wrote it, but Wonderland seemed like a great metaphor for the whole virtual reality scene, at least taken to its logical conclusion as I did. DODO gets weirder yet, although I do like the temple outside of Memphis (Tennessee, not Egypt) that has the John Tenniel figures lining the steps...

As I say, I'm not really an expert on it, but I did think it was a wonderful metaphor, and, less obviously, Carroll has helped me jump start some concepts when designing other worlds, most notably the Well World.
######################################
Editor's note.

I agree Wonderland and Looking-Glass worlds are easily considered a virtual reality in a time when you used your imagination to create it instead of a machine. Of course in the Wonderland Gambit you get to use a machine shaped by your imagination - a good touch. To me the obvious reference to use is the Red King dreaming or dreamt. I have only read The Cybernetic Walrus so far, so maybe it shows up in a later book.

I like the book Alice in Wonderland. I have started reading it. If you have children with a 7th or 8th grade reading level, that are not interested in Goose Bumps, they will probably enjoy it.
p.s. I am a kid so if my spelling is attrocious that's why.
SORRY!!!!!!!!

Editor: It's nice to hear that kids still enjoy reading Alice, especially from a genuine kid. The bad news is there is only one t in atrocious and I believe Goosebumps is one word. The good news is that when you're an adult you'll want to read Alice again and you'll enjoy it more.

I would like to attract your attention to a wonderful book of which I did not find a reference on your page " Alice in puzzle-land : a Carrollian tale for children" by Raymond Smullyan.

This is the reference on this book from the Library of Congress:

Author:        Smullyan, Raymond M.
Title:         Alice in puzzle-land : a Carrollian tale for children
                  under eighty / Raymond Smullyan ; with an
                  introduction by Martin Gardner ; illustrated by
                  Greer Fitting.
Published:     N.Y., N.Y. : Penguin Books, 1984.
Description:   x, 182 p. : ill. ; 20 cm.
LC Call No.:   GV1493 .S624 1984
Dewey No.:     793.73 19
ISBN:          0140070567 (pbk.)
Notes:         Originally published: New York : Morrow, 1982.
               A range of puzzles dealing with word play and logic,
                  mathematics and philosophy, featuring Alice and the
                  creatures of Wonderland.
Subjects:      Puzzles.
               Fantastic fiction -- Miscellanea.
               Puzzles.
Other authors: Carroll, Lewis, 1832-1898. Alice's adventures in
                  Wonderland.
               Fitting, Greer.
Control No.:   83025141 /AC/r95

Subject: Lewis Carroll/Hiawatha's Photographing

Dear Joel Birenbaum

I got your address from the Lewis Carroll home page on the web--which I enjoyed
tremendously.  I have a question about a Lewis Carroll poem that I have
wondered about for years, and I thought you might be able to help me.  On the
other hand, the question itself may be new to you, and so you might be
interested.

It's about some lines from "Hiawatha's Photographing", the parody Carroll wrote
of Longfellow's Hiawatha.  (All my books are in storage, so the following is
all from memory, which explains some of the gaps.)  One section deals with the
chemicals one has to use: it starts "Mystic, awful, was the process" and after
naming some chemical as a salt of something or other he says:

	Chemists call it hyposulfite
	(Very difficult the name is
	For a meter like the present
	But periphrasis has done it).

This section does not appear in most versions of this poem.  I believe I saw it
in an early 1940s edition of the British anthology "The Faber Book of Comic
Verse".  If my memory serves, the lines are missing from the complete works of
Lewis Carroll, published in one volume; they are also missing from the only
copy of the poem I could find on the web, a page which said it was taken from
an 1887 manuscript (I've mislaid the address, I'm afraid, but I probably found
it via your page.)  So my question is, what is the provenance of these lines?
 Are they a later addition, and why don't most editions include them?  Or were
they only in the early editions, and deleted later for space?

My interest is purely recreational; I'm a fan of Carroll's and would simply
like to satisfy my curiosity.  I've been wondering about this for years.  If
you can help, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks

Mike Christie

** Reply to: mikec@sterinfo.com
**********************************

First, a piece of glass he coated
With collodion he plunged it
In a bath of lunar caustic
Carefully dissolved in water-
There he left it certain minutes. Secondly, my Hiawatha
Made with cunning hand a mixture
Of the acid pyrro-gallic,
And of glacial-acetic,
And of alcohol and water-
This developed all the picture.
Finally, he fixed a picture
With a saturate solution
Which was made of hyposulphite,
Which again, was made of soda.
(Very difficult the name is
For a metre like the present
But periphrasis has done it.)

Not a bad memory, I'd say.

Questions Asked Frequently

1. Why is a Raven like a writing desk?
   ANSWER: from the rec.arts.books faq.

   According to Martin Gardner, Carroll had no answer in mind which he first
   wrote this.  However, Carroll did gave a solution himself, in an 1896
   edition of "Alice": "Because it can produce very few notes, tho they are
   very flat; and it is nevar [sic] put with the wrong end in front."  Gardner
   has recently added another: "Because there is a 'b' in 'both.'"
   
   	In a brief preface that Carroll wrote for an 1896 edition
   	of ALICE IN WONDERLAND, he said he had no answer in mind
   	when he gave this riddle.  Many answers have since been
   	suggested, including one by Carroll himself, some of which
   	you will find in my AA note.  In 1989 England's Lewis
   	Carroll Society announced a contest for new answers, to be
   	published eventually in the society's newsletter,
   	"Bandersnatch."
   
   	Aldous Huxley, writing on "Ravens and Writing Desks"
   	(Vanity Fair, September 1928), supplies two nonsense
   	answers: because there's a 'b' in both, and because there's
   	an 'n' in neither.  James Michie sent a similar answer:
   	because each begins with 'e'.  Huxley defends the view that
   	such metaphysical questions as: Does God exist?  Do we have
   	free will?  Why is there suffering? are as meaningless as
   	the Mad Hatter's question -- "nonsensical riddles,
   	questions not about reality but about words."
   
   	"Both have quills dipped in ink" was suggested by reader
   	David B. Jodrey, Jr.  Cyril Pearson, in his undated
   	TWENTIETH CENTURY STANDARD PUZZLE BOOK, suggests, "Because
   	it slopes with a flap."
   
   	Denis Crutch ("Jabberwocky," Winter 1976) reported an
   	astonishing discovery.  In the 1896 edition of ALICE,
   	Carroll wrote a new preface in which he gave what he
   	considered the best answer to the riddle:  "Because it can
   	produce a few notes, tho they are *very* flat; and it is
   	nevar put with the wrong end in front."  Note the spelling
   	of "never" as "nevar." Carroll clearly intended to spell
   	"raven" backwards.  The word was corrected to "never" in
   	all later printings, perhaps by an editor who fancied he
   	had caught a printer's error.  Because Carroll died soon
   	after this "correction" destroyed the ingenuity of his
   	answer, the original spelling was never restored.  Whether
   	Carroll was aware of the damage done to his clever answer
   	is not known.
   
   Another answer is that Poe wrote on both.
   
   Dan'l Danehy-Oakes also suggested the variant that both have inky quills.
   
   In chapter 39 of THE SHINING, Stephen King says,
   "The higher the fewer, of course!  Have another cup of tea!"
   

   For myself, I say it is because they both have 2 eyes (i's).

   ---

   And now a new answer - I think. Because each in its own way is a dark wing site. If you get it, let me know. Joel.

   Explanantion after Thanksgiving.

   ---

   From elev@e.kth.se Sat Oct  5 08:26 CDT 1996
   Subject: Raven and desk
   
   As to their likeness they might both be seen as omens of death. Certainly 
   schooling and literary work have a tendency to kill individuality. Congratulations 
   to the few survivors!
   
   

   editor's note: This is not exactly what I had in mind, which is the writer's intention. A dark answer from the land of Ingemar Bergman. Of course, the Alice books are a direct refutation of this premise. On the positive side, at least this person took the time to send a comment. Thanks for your contribution. It is not important that we agree, but that we converse.

   ---

   From: fran@netins.net
   Subject: Why is A Raven....

   They both have legs.

   Editor's note: Clearly a correct answer, if rather obvious, but I never heard it before.

   ---

   Because they correspond!
   A writing desk is used to correspond.
   And a raven responds with a caw, a caw-response.

   Israel Cohen
   izzy@telaviv.ddddf.com

   Editor's note: Well that's a new one for sure. Now we're getting into the spirit.

   ---

   OK, here's another one.
   
   In Lewis Carrol's "Alice in Wonderland: A Mad Tea-Party", the Mad Hatter 
   asks:
   "Why is a raven like a writing desk?"
   
   Because the raven has a secret aerie and the writing desk is a secretary.
   
   raven
   1.  any of several very large corvine birds having lustrous black plumage 
   and a
        loud, harsh call, esp. Corvus corax, of North America and Eurasia.
   
   aerie
   2.  a lofty nest of any large bird.
   
   secretary
   6.  a piece of furniture for use as a writing desk, esp. one with drawers 
   below and a
        cabinet or bookshelves above an often enclosed writing surface.
   
   /s/ Israel Cohen
   izzy@telaviv.ddddf.com
   

   Editor's note: Did I encourage him too much?

   ---

   From: Dub Dublin - Sun Network Ambassador

   Joel:

   I just discovered your page today - thanks and keep up the good work. I am by no means a Carroll scholar, but I do enjoy a good riddle, so the "new" answer ("Because each in its own way is a dark wing site.") to the riddle of "Why is a Raven like a writing desk?" intrigued me.

   My first response was that I *didn't* get it (and I assume, you're not quite sure if you do yourself, judging by your comments), and I must confess I'm still trying to grapprehend any hidden meaning there.

   Anywho, the first possibility is that it is yet another allegory to feathers and ink, in which case it isn't really new but deserves style points for presentation. This is the only satisfactory interpretation I can come up with, and seems to be what the author intended based on the "each in its own way" caveat.

   Another possibility is a play on pronunciation (based on the similarity between the spoken G and K sounds) which has two meanings:

   1) Dark Wing Site, and
   2) Dark Ink Site (But you just have to ignore the offending "W" this way, so its not very satisfying),

   And of course, there are the more strangelous things one can do to try to find meaning there: My favorite is that one anagram of "dark wing site" is "Edgar's ink wit" which seems to nicely wrap up a number of themes in one.

   Just feeling nonsensical today,

   Dub Dublin                      Sun Microsystems
   Market Segment Manager          12 Greenway Plaza, Suite 1500
   Healthcare & Petroleum          Houston, Texas 77046 USA
   dub.dublin@sun.com              +1-713-964-7020
   
   

   ---

   > Boy, you almost had it with that last answer. To get that close and then just > fall short. I'll give you another shot at it, before I divulge the answer.

   The correct answer, of course, is that "dark wing site" is an anagram for "a writing desk". I have no idea how I missed this yesterday (I suppose I was fixed on allusions to Poe), although I did finally click to the right answer on the drive home last night. (They keep wanting me to work at work.)

   I'd say this one fully qualifies as a new answer. And it's got so many related shades of meaning in the same area that it may just be the best answer yet. There's no doubt Dodgson would have loved it.

   How many people "get it" so far?

   Dub

   Editor's note: Of course, that is the correct answer. Nobody else "got it" or at least nobody told me.

   ---

   Given Carroll ecclectic tastes and talents, I believe, that before answers can be provided to his riddles one needs to carry out some research into the topics of etymology and ornithology.Carroll was very aware of the history of words and languages such that it is here where some answers may be found. At the same time one should remember the joy and playfulness he took into most endeavours and thus attempt to answer in this same spirit. Here are a few answers (in a sort of Carrolian fashion and, I hope, spirit):

   1) 'It can be found in a class with a "Writing Master".' (i.e. the bird otherwise known as a Yellow Hammer or 'Emberiza citrinella').

   2)'It finds its roots by flying and scratching.' This answer makes sence once the following etymological roots - found in most dictionaries - are considered: "writing" can be traced to the root "to scratch" (as in the first types of writing or runes scratched on wood or rocks) and "desk" can be traced to a flying "disk" or "discus.

   3)'It can be a little, curious standish (a portable Victorian writing desk)and curiously a little standoffish.'

   4)'It understands its tails and quills would nevar worc with the wrong end in front.'

   5)'It is used to carry on work and worc carrion.'

   Fernando J. Soto
   cak130@mail.usask.ca
   tel# 1 306 343 5770

   And the answers keep coming.

   Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:15:05 +0100
   From: Pascale Renaud 
   Subject: Of ravens, desks and frogs
   
   Dear Editor,
   in answer to the riddle of the Mad Tea Party, here s one 
   answer - though it doesn t seem to me Alice would have
   have ever thought of it, if one recalls her knowledge of 
   French. I guess one must me a froggie to splash about
   such a puddle of nonsense...
   
   Why is a raven like a writing desk ?
   Translates in French :
   Pourquoi un corbeau est-il comme un bureau ?
   
   Answer :
   Parce qu ils font tous les deux de beaux rrou.
   
   If anybody gets it, congratulations and let me know !
   
   A bientot !
   
   Pascale
   from Paris 
   

   And here's a strange one.

   a raven is a blackbird, it's no white on . . (a corbie)
   the other is a schreibisch to write on . . . (a dorbie!)
   a corbie is scots for a blackbird or raven. a dorbie is scots for an initiate
   freemason. this is a very naughty joke which Charles wouldnt like the children
   to know about. it corncerns the black widow (queen loonatic victoria) and her
   "friend" the scotsman Jonh Brown. Its rumoured in high places that they bumped
   off the boring German Albert.Hence the play on German for writing desk.
   

   Here is the straight dope from Cecil Adams

   Here is the straight dope continued from Cecil Adams

   And after such a long time a new entry:
   because both are always cawling.

   ---

2. I'm a {freshman, sophomore, junior, senior} in {grade school, middle school, high school, college, graduate school} and I am doing a {report, project, thesis} on Lewis Carroll, please send me what you can.

   ANSWER: My initial response is to send them ... to the library. I would recommend reading all the biographies, but if you only have time for one, the latest one by Morton Cohen is the most complete. If the project is about references in the Alice books, read the original Annotated Alice, by Martin Gardner, written in 1960 and in its 32nd printing I think. The Philosopher's Alice by Peter Heath is a second good book for this topic. All of the books on the Carroll reference page are worth reading.

   Please do some research before contacting me. If you have specific ideas you want to discuss, then I would be happy to discuss them with you.